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there's this also hurricane beryl tearing through the caribbean, now targeting jamaica and i love him very much so it's, it's painful ivanka trump breaking her silence on her father's criminal conviction look i view myself as a bridge, not as anything else. there's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me they are the future of this country that was president biden in 2020. he went back on that promise when he decided to run again in 2024, but might be about to make good on it now, this morning on the sixth day after that disastrous debate, president biden's dam of support in the democratic party has sprung so many leaks that it is at risk of failure. and with it is biden's future at the top of the democratic

ticket we have to be honest with ourselves that it wasn't just a horrible night. >> they have to take a clear right view of what happened as a result of the debate. and can they move on or do they have to reevaluate the fact that but no one said it. i think was holding back and now it seems like the dams breaking. i think it's a legitimate question to say is this an episode or is this a condition? i salute president biden. i just feel that it's time for him to step aside. if we were to be able to protect what he allowed us to gain and 2020, he delivered us from trump, then he could be delivering us to trump this year. >> wow, the behind the scenes panic starting to spill out into the open overnight. the washington post reporting this quote, former president barack obama has privately told allies who have reached out to him. the president biden's already tough path to reelection grew more challenging after his

shaky debate performance on thursday that's, a far harsher assessment. they report that obama has offered in public. this as president biden tries to explain it all away, telling supporters at a fundraiser, quote, i decided to travel around the world a couple of times shortly before the debate and then i almost fell asleep on stage so that was apparently a joke. it didn't quite land, according to reporters in the room, the laughter was, shall we say minimal? it's worth noting that biden didn't have nearly two weeks at home before the cnn debate then there's this this morning, the new york times reporting president biden is quote, increasingly appeared confused or listless, or would lose the thread of conversations the times also reports this about biden's debate prep quote. it never started before 11:00 a.m. and mr. biden was given time for an afternoon nap. president biden has now announced they will sit down with abc's george stephanopoulos for a taped interview on friday. and today, several governors are flying to washington to meet with biden

in-person as he tries to reassure them that he is the up to the job among them, california's gavin newsom and illinois jb pritzker. both named as possible contenders to replace biden at the top of the ticket, even if they currently support him? >> joe biden is going to be our nominee unless he decides otherwise. and so i think that there's a healthy conversation that will happen with the president, joe biden is our nominee. and ultimately that decision on continuing are not will fall to him and his family. family the governors just want a direct and candid conversation with the president. we want to make sure he's doing okay all right. >> our panels here, let's bring and cnn senior political analyst mark preston, alex thompson, national political reported for axios. the former white house communications director kate bedingfield and matt gorman, who is former senior adviser to the tim scott presidential campaign. welcome to all of you you are in the hotseat this morning welcome. i

appreciate you being here we have seen all of this kind of reporting pilot. i want to dig into some of the things that alex has reported in the last 24 hours as well. and i know he has new reporting, but first, i just want you to kinda bring us inside the conversations democrats are having right now because it does feel like we're in a different place today than we were on monday. there does seem to be this groundswell, this sense at a boulder rolling down the hill at president biden, what's your sense of where things stand now and what are the variables affecting the president's decision? yeah. well, look, i think we should level set a little bit, which is to say if you look at the scope of polling that's come out since the debate, the bottom has actually not fallen out from under joe biden. i would not argue the status quo is great for him either. i mean, you see him consistently within one or two points in swing states that he needs to win so i'm not arguing that the landscape looks terrific for him right now, but it is also true that the bottom has not fallen out since the debate. so i think that should be the point of discussion. that should be where we start this discussion. in part because swapping out the nominee is not a light task. it

is not something that would be easy. the person who, who takes that mantle is then going to be in the in the firing line and is going to see their numbers start to drop as they necessarily become the focus so i think we should disabuse ourselves of the idea that there is like a magic fix here. that being said, i think the conversations that are happening right now reflect genuine concern. they reflect a respect for the president, respect for what joe biden's accomplished, and the fact that nobody wants to see him struggle or see him diminished i think what democrats are doing is looking at how can we get to a place where we can best defeat donald trump, who we believe represents an existential threat to our country and to our democracy and i think the thing that, the task that biden has now is he has got to be out there aggressively trying to assuage these concerns. people need to see him. they need to see him being his best self. i believe he's capable of that, but i do think he needs to be out there doing it and he needs to be

bringing the narrative back to trump, that he's the focus he's got to move the focus off of him, get it back to trump. the fact that you have somebody who who's been convicted of 34 felonies who's running for president of the united states, somebody who has stated that he will not accept the results of this election that's where the conversation needs to be, because that's the real threat here. >> alex, can you just update us on where your latest reporting is because i mean, i take a look, i take all of kate's points, but the reality is that the more we learn about the state of affairs inside the white house with president right now, the word it seems to get, yeah, one, maybe if k was still in the white house and taking taking their advice, mazie, to be better because the back matter is this is a white house in crisis at this point, not just because of where things sit with the polls and what happened with the debate because of morale inside and part of that is not is because joe biden has not been out there. >> the fact is like since the debate, he is only done one rally in north carolina, didn't any liebowitz photo

shoot with the family on sunday behind closed doors, you did a very brief set of remarks and then took no questions. he has not sat in front of one reporter since then. waiting until friday, and it seems to send the message that he can't do it or that i don't know. i have no i have no idea but some people inside the white house are taking people. >> i'm talking to wonder about. yes. exactly and again, this goes the morale question, which is like people's at the white house inside the campaign are like what's going on, like, because they had not seen that side of joe biden, that they saw in the debate? >> i do think i think it's important as we're talking about joe biden's future in the future of the country i think we should make clear to everyone who is watching whether you're republican or democrat like this. this is a man who has given his life to public service, right? and we are playing this out like it's a basketball game, including myself. like we're trying to game this out politically. this is a situation where it's sad,

it's sad and see somebody who's given so much to the country that has got the respect from democrats and republicans that this could be his way out, that this may be the way that he leaves the and gracious isn't it just shows you where we are in politics right now. it's just, it's, it's brutal. it tears people apart. and then again sometimes people just don't know when to walk away and when to leave. and i do wonder if that's one of these situations with president. >> i've had i had someone texts me a democrat, democrat, a source this morning, who said that flattery is going to be the key if democrats want the president to step down, well-deserved, right? flattery, by the way, they say, in their view for a legacy of public service that is very long. matt gorman, i was talking last hour or two presidential historian who talked a little bit about the other times when there have been sitting presidents who have decided not to run for reelection, truman, and of course, lyndon johnson. and he

underscored that in each case it was the man himself who came to the decision by himself and he said over the objections, often of family members and others where do you see this heading into kind of keeping two to mark questions sharpen and smart way of thinking about this in a sweeping historical perspective, even as of course, the questions loom, it just months away. >> i kind of harken back to in some ways when candidates want to end it, presidential campaign that aren't the nominee, right? there's a human side of this and the way i think of this so imagine going six miles per hour de highway, then immediately shifting in neutral. it's jarring. there's a human side of this. i think we often undercut. and when a lot of candidates who live in a bubble, the state nothing of the united states, just candidates running for president or office live in such a bubble. and that bubble is rapidly pierce it is jarring, and it takes time for them to kinda sorta get out and i think this being said yesterday, when we look back on

this, when all is said and done no matter what yesterday was such a pivot point, there was a window, a afford five-day window where as alex is right, it could have been could went on tv, news conference, some new visual to say nothing of the fact reaching out to pelosi claiborne schumer, jeffries which i am shocked that didn't happen. and now that didn't happen in the dam might not be breaking, but it's close to breaking and yesterday was such a pivotal point in that okay. >> i mean, look, i think that that's i think there's some truth to that. i think that the first four or five days after the debate, i do think there have been missed opportunities. i do. i think the fact that we are still essentially solely focused on this now, what six days after the debate that's not great for biden and he has had opportunities to come out and try to change the narrative and reassure people who are concerned, but also to the point i was making earlier, i think even more critically pushed the narrative back to trump. i mean, that's the other the overarching message

objective of this campaign is to make this a referendum on the guy who was, i would argue a disaster so as president for four years and remind people of what the stakes are here. so the fact that that has not happened more aggressively, i think is also what is driving concern. it's less about the state of the race, although yes, there's absolutely concerned about that amongst democrats because again, if you look at the swing-state polling you have to have eyes right? but i do think that the fact that there has not been a more aggressive push over the last few days is also what is turning people up. the one thing i will say though, is that that means if the president does engage, get out there, if people feel like they see him and can say, okay, you know what? that wasn't a great night, but it was one night now, i've seen them out there. i think he has the opportunity to change the narrative, but i think he's got to do it. >> well, i'll sort of agree with both of you guys where basically every single day that we go forward, there are going to be more cracks in the dam and we just don't know when the dam will break.

>> well, until that point and i've been hearing rumblings of this reuters is reporting 25 democratic members of the house preparing a call for biden to step aside if you seem shaky in the coming days and i was talking to one person who also seen a lot of the internal house democratic polling that shows that the president is running way behind house democratic nominees and and they're starting to really worry that they could lose the house in a potential landslide that would have a far-reaching ramifications. of course, you know, let's, let's just leave you as we gotta, we gotta take a quick break before resume this conversation, but we are at a very potentially distinct at turning point in history. a flashback to the the last time we saw something like this happen i do not believe that i should devote an hour our de my time to any personal partisan causes or to any duties other than the awesome duties of this

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therapy's tough, huh? -mmm. it's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. oo this is a good book title. expansion of our brand look at this, this is happening welcome to joe biden is our nominee. we'd be trump once em, we're going to meet him again, appearing are you ready to lead the country of necessary i am proud to be joe biden's running mate i am proud to be joe biden's running mate. >> she says that's the message from vice president kamala harris as biden president biden grapples with his place atop the democratic ticket in a new cnn poll, a theoretical matchup between the vice president and former president trump show was harris trailing by two points, but within the margin of error, it's actually closer than the

current margin between biden and trump in that same poll, get bad for some in the party. those numbers are close enough and they are calling to make the change to harris, right now i just think that that camila is the person that's the cleanest way. >> she's a seasoned campaign are now three-and-a-half years of experience and so i think people would be very, very excited and i think she'd be good for down-ballot races in energize our base. so to me it's pretty straightforward but the fact that no one said it, i think was holding back and now it seems like the dams breaking so mark preston, the other thing that stuck out to me on this question was jim clyburn, who is if there's anyone and kate, you can jump in on this too. if there is anyone that could go to the president and actually weigh on the president's mind if they were to say, hey, you need jump out of this, it would be jim clyburn. he was very straightforward with our dana bash over the weekend and saying he supports biden. but then yesterday he did another interview and he acknowledged

he was willing to entertain the idea that he'll support someone else. if biden steps down, let's listen to that. >> support her if he were to step aside, this modest should not in any way do anything to work around ms harris how big a deal is that? that's a huge deal. he just planted the flag. he basically said, hey, guess what, gretchen whitmer, guess what? gavin newsom, guess what, you're shapiro. guess what whomever it you're biden steps aside. kamala harris is going to be the nominee to your point. he has so much gravitas in the party might be one of the few elder leaders now that are still fill in congress that actually came get the younger people to do something and they will, the younger people, meaning younger democrats. and they actually trust him. he could be a kingmaker. he was a kingmaker in the sense that he helped joe biden win reelection, right? excuse me defeat donald trump i just think that what he did for kamala harris says yesterday,

as we talked about yesterday, being in a notable day that's gonna be a notable moment alex, what is your reporting around? >> how much harris has strength or lack thereof is playing into the biden decision-making. >> well, i think there are definitely a lot of people in the biden world that i've sort of justified the back they're running for reelection because of kamala harris is weaknesses and that's started from the very beginning, basically saying that she is not as popular. joe biden, she has not been for a long time now. she has had incredible amounts of staff turnover the likes of which that joe biden is not have. she's also not been very comfortable, really with any portfolio items that are in any way controversial, right? like she's basically retreated to stuff that is very safe. and all those three things have also have led a lot of the biden team to be like, we can't let her be the nominee because if we step aside, she's almost likely to be the nominee and she can't do it or

she's not ready. i am i believe it was chris whipple's book that said that quota joe biden as saying that she's not quite ready for prime time or something along those lines and but who knows now, because they're deeper questions right now about whether or not even joe biden can do the job a year from now, two years from now, three years from now or four years from now, or even right now. and those are much deeper than the political. >> remember, they are on the ticket together and the biden team absolutely views her as an enormous asset as they're moving into the think of this general election campaign. so i don't the way that they think about her is as added value as somebody who can go into communities that sometimes joe biden doesn't connect with as directly. they definitely view her as a as a political asset. and as we're gaming out all these hypotheticals, remember, they are on the ticket together right now. and that's the way that the the white house, the campaign is thinking about

their most immediate next steps is with her as a partner. in this in this reelection and two, you're picking up on your point about what is happening right now in this moment, there is this column that we can dig into from tom friedman after this next break, basically asking whether joe biden is the man you want answering the phone at 3am, if the russians or the chinese or the iranians attack us, that's kinda where we are in this conversation right now. all right. coming up next family, getting ready for an rv road trip when it burst into flames? we're just going to take this little detour. it's one of five things you have to see this morning dr. sanjay gupta reports the last alzheimer's patient sunday at 9:00 on cnn, want a theory and exposure right? >> to brokerage account, get it with the symbol e, the grayscale ethereum trust. world's largest ethereum fund, eth crypto investing, begins

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complicated corners around windows, to crown molding that will have you we're asking what room should we paint next? fraud when it matters most july 4 cnn concert event, with performance by keith urban ashanti, maybe wrexham, the killers and many more for doing america. thursday, july 4 at seven eastern on cnn the covid excuse me, with i'm dealing with everything we have to do with what if we finally beat medicare? moments like that from last week, cnn debate showed millions of americans what close biden allies have been working to brush aside for months? the president's age and mental fitness does seem to in fact be a hindrance in his campaign against donald trump. a significant one. and now new

reporting from the new york times indicates these moments are not just one-offs as so many people are trying to insist, but are growing more frequent, more pronounced and more worrisome, generating concerns among advisers and allies joining me now is one of the reporters on that story, new york times white house correspondent zola on kano young's zoltan. good morning to you. this headline is biden's lapses are said to be increasingly common and worrisome. several current and former officials and others who encountered him behind closed doors, noticed he is increasingly appeared confused or listless or would lose the thread of conversations. this does seem to be part of certainly democrats, i'm talking to are angry that this is not something that people were willing to acknowledge that to them until now, what else have you learned and what are you reporting here? >> sure. and thanks for having me on. you opened beye by describing the debate performance. and i think for many of us who cover the white house and really for americans,

voters across the country, the question became how much of this is unique? a one-off or has something like this? happening more frequently and while we don't know if it's to the extent of what we saw on the debate stage, are reporting does show that these sort of lapses this, these moments where the president can appear listless are confused that that is happening more frequently according to those that see him behind closed doors it's both advisers domestically, but also we wanted to know for the officials that are working with president biden, are they noticing this so lucky? he is blaming this on the circus would travel that he had, we could start there, we could go to the trip in europe where we talked to european officials who said that they were, that they were, that they were struck by the decline, particularly physically by the president at one point, we also reported that the italian leader giorgia meloni, as well

as other european leaders, when, when entering a space with the president would slowed down and casey needed time to crowd around him we talked to a us official, former us official, who said that the president biden now compared to the person that they were working for, that that they are not sure if that they would put him in a room with a foreign adversary like vladimir putin we talked to a european official who just said flattening know at that point and we did see through talking to officials that again, these these little blips fumbling over a leaders name or your own cabinet secretaries name, or or, or stumbling over the wording of the correct amount of ukraine funding that that is catching people by alarm. we do know that after one of his first trips after traveling across the atlantic, he came back to camp david and based off of our reporting, was cut

his plan debate days by two so to fewer days, started working after 11:00 a.m. and an included a nap as well indicating that some of that exhaustion was taking effect. so you're seeing the president at this time blame this on travel and i think the reporting also shows that just throughout the officials that we talked to you to biden's emerge here. the white house brought out many officials that said that he still sharpen that in cases of national emergencies national security emergencies, that he can still talk directly to a liter. we include an example with prime minister benny netanyahu. but at the same time, this other biden has also emerging. one that seems to fumble overs words and have more frequent occurrences where he does appear confused and it's starting to have a ripple effect and catch the attention not only of european allies, but also democrats within the united states. >> certainly, many of whom read the new york times, zahlen,

kennel young's very grateful to have you on the show this morning. thank you very much for that. and to this question of you, know whether the president is capable of dealing with these things in the moment, right now, something that the right has been focused on, but tom friedman, today in a column in the new york times, and this is significant in no small part. at you can lend some texture here, but my understanding is president biden reads tom friedman, they've known each other for many years. friedman writes this quote is more i'm going to incredible importance for america and the democratic party. i would urge president biden, his family and his party's leadership to ask the same question, what does your worst enemy donald trump, want you to do now? then do the opposite. trump is salivating at the prospect of biden staying in the presidential race. so he can pummel him from now until election day with 52nd television and radio ads. now not to mention memes on social media of biden's incoherent responses in last week's debate each ad asking, is this the man you want answering the phone at 3am? if the russians or the chinese or

the iranians attack us, it is a significant question okay? but as an american, you know who i don't want answering the phone at three yammer who i don't want in the room with vladimir putin making decisions, donald trump, but it has the issue. the issue is that russia should do whatever the hell it wants with our allies. so let's just wait, let's but i'm just saying let's let's have a conversation. and that's about what's at stake here. and we have somebody running for president who has said russia can do whatever it wants to r nader allies if he becomes president. so the question is, the speeding trump. so that being said, i think this narrative is this is no question. this is a challenging narrative because this is what this does for the campaign as requires them and the white house is requires them to proven negative, right? it requires them to say no, it behind closed doors. he's strong, he's tough. that's that's a tough place to be. i will say as somebody who worked for joe biden for a long time now granted, i haven't been in the white house since march of 2023, so but in my time working for him, there were there were criticisms like this. people were questioning is a ages he

sharp in meetings mean we saw this. republicans tried to make this a line of attack during the debt ceiling fight when i was there and he was sharp, he was on top of things. he was driving decisions. he was driving discussions, he was tough in prep you know, i mean, i think there are there is lot of evidence that he is has continued to do an effective job as president. i mean, i think you see it in the results i'm not arguing that this is not a challenging and vulnerable line of attack and something that the biden campaign and joe biden and the biden white house are going to have to slog through but i will tell you as somebody who worked in this white house very closely with joe biden he was on top of it and he is somebody who is always going to make the best decision in the interests of the united states of america. and you cannot say that about donald trump. well, and i think the question is from march of 2023, which was a year ago, what has happened in the time since i biden certainly wants to make this about democracy. and as a republican, i feel pretty confident saying okay, we'll look, if democrats are truly

believed that the fader democracy is hinging on this election then democrats need to not just say it with an act wise democracy in words, hinging on an 81-year-old who works from ten to four and who was you read that new york times article? it's really troubling because not only take out the fact that it's a served all these for next four years, he's still present for seven months. and the fact if something happens, he can get in a room with letterman putin today. that's a troubling thought let me just ask this question, right? so we basically have written him off. i mean, if you're gonna watch tv where basically went are going to happen then what are the odds like what days they're going to happen when that's where all the commentary is going right now. my question is, why are we here? joe biden plays the character of, i am this tough guy from scranton. by the way, i think he is why wasn't he out there? everyone saying, oh, he's going to do this interview and guess what, next week it's going to drop press conference that natal how about you just walks out and says let's get down to brass tacks. let's just put this all

on the table instead of being totally surrounded in being protected haldol. and that node has gotten what we haven't talked about was that white house briefing yesterday, that was a disaster. i just watched it. i was like was like malays. it was mulaney's proven of dental already because if you remember when the her report dropped, they called that press conference within what, three hours. two hours looking also two let's let's remember, we act in saying this kind of we act as if these interviews and press conference, there's not a massive downside. if he comes out and isn't anywhere sharp as he should be? then those cries are only going to get louder. that there is also massive downside and some of these things which were not also not talking about. >> yeah, absolutely i mean, if joe biden has one more even close to a senior moment of something in any of these interviews so that it's charged up. an app was when he's in wisconsin, this friday i think we've we've talked about the dam breaking, their cracks

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angering. this is not about to the democrat or republican party. they both put up candidates that are not electable for very different reasons. if joe biden stays on the ticket and donald trump has done the ticket, i'm fast-tracking moving to costa rica joining being how his marc mckend is former or george w bush and john mccain and the creator of paramount's. the circus mark. it's always wonderful to see you. you predicted that this was going to be, it could be the most consequential debate in american political history. i just want to kind of give you, give you props for that, because apparently it's what we're seeing. i'd like to know where you think big picture this sits, right now. i as both a political but also historic moment for president biden well, obviously what's hugely consequential. i thought it was a high-risk strategy, but one worth taking but, you know, people tuned in to see if the president looked at and he

looked 90 our mutual friend paul but gala and i, the very first candidate we worked for was a guy named lloyd doggett, 40 years ago. and i will just tell you that if you ask me which member of congress of democrats might be the first to suggest that biden shouldn't run. i would put i would have put dog and at the end of that that list, i was shocked that lloyd doggett came out. he is a dyed-in-the-wool party guy, very thoughtful guy. and for him to come out and say, listen, i live in the district represented by lbj. i know he had a hard decision to make so does the president. he's gotta do it. listen, i kate's doing a great job. i'm glad i don't have her job right now i'm trying to defendant present, but it's indefensible. the fact is that he was behind going into the bay is worse off now, and we know it's not going to get better every single moment. it's gonna be scrutinized. and the fact is when you're at your rating 1-years-old, you're going to have these moments we know now from reporting that he's had

these moments that we hadn't heard about. so it's only you're going to get worse. so i think it's just very fundamentally obvious that if you care about our democracy and you're worried about donald trump winning, we need somebody else running so mark i want to show you something a couple of things from governors that we have seen over the course of the six days since this all unfolded let's start with gavin newsom, who is one of the governor's invited to the white house today. this was what he had to say in the spin room right after the debate. watch i would never turn my back on president biden never turn my back on president biden. i don't know what democratic party that would do. so especially after tonight, we have his back, we run not the 90 yard dash. we are all in. we're going to double down in the next few months. we're going to win this election so i suppose nothing else to say in that moment except for that. >> but then let's look at what governor pritzker of illinois, someone else who's in this contender for president conversation. and andy beshear, governor of kentucky, have

said, in the last 243624 hours, it sounds a lot different. watch joe biden is going to be our nominee unless he decides otherwise. >> and so i think that there's a healthy conversation that will happen with the president. joe biden is our nominee and ultimately that decision on continuing or not will fall to him and his family. the governors just want a direct and candid conversation with the president. we want to make sure he's doing okay we want to make sure he's doing okay. i mean, what do you hearing those comments? what do you expect today well, i've heard it's constantly throughout the last few days. >> i've done a lot of television on this topic and i've been on with a lot of people like kate and people who've worked for biden or our or staunch democrats and defenders of the president. and you could feel the ice thaw in real time. i mean, it went from no way that lets the newsome

position two. well, let's just wait and see, let's see what the polls say. the body language is really changing obviously, because i think everybody knows what the situation is here. maybe they want us to look, they want to they want to be good soldiers. but at the end of the day, they know that their generals in bad shape and he can't lead the troops so where do you think biden goes? goes from here? i mean, they're planning this interview on friday, a press conference next week illusion, i think the smartest thing i've heard from any democratic jamie raskin, because what democrats have to do is paint a picture of something other than humiliation and defeat before biden and raskin said, listen, we're going to get this convention. >> we're going to lie ionize the guy we're going to give them the gold watch. we're all hail joe biden would get the democrats need to paint a picture of what this is going to look like for joe biden. he can have a substantial role and he could be the hero of the story he doesn't have to anoint anybody, but you can say listen more democrats go at it i love you. we've done a great job. i think our administration has done great and we'd set it up where you go getter. so i

this morning. come back soon. thank you but the person that's got to do that as jailed by the way yeah. that makes absolute absolute sense. all right. thank you. so i want to i want to get to this now, mark preston alluded to it earlier, the white house fended off tough questions about presidents biden's fitness at the briefing yesterday and it was a time it was tough to watch is anyone in the white house hiding information about the president's health or his ability to do the job. dave absolutely. now, as it relates to his medical records, we have been transparent. we have released their reports from his medical team every year since he's been an office that is something that we have been pretty consistent about. have we been transparent though? alex thompson, i think a big part of this story is how people feel like the white house hasn't been candid absolutely. >> i mean, as someone we've talked as voir zone, that's report on his age for last three-and-a-half years as a reporter, i feel especially in

retrospect, after watching a debate, i have been met by gaslighting. a lot of deflecting at times, niven telling the truth about the presence scheduled. now, we've all been talking about this whole thing about the president from ten to four met reported that a year ago no one really bathed much attention to it. and the fact is that this is also what is added to the turmoil inside this white house because there is incredible frustration, especially among people that really love joe biden that have been with him for a long time, that it people within the inner circle knew that he had some of these moments that knew that there was even a 5% chance that what happened on thursday night was going to happen. and they let him go on that stage and humiliate himself and brown the entire world and let him do it anyway, there's tremendous anger and sadness among the people that have worked for joe biden believe in his legacy,

that they let him go out there and do it anyway. >> can i just say that point is actually exactly why i believe that thursday night was an aberration. i will see we'll see what happens. but the people i worked for joe biden for a long time, i worked closely with all of the people who are closely around him they care about him. they love him they would not have let him go out if they believed that that was what was going to happen. so i actually i take the inverse of the argument you're making to reinforce the idea that it was a historically bad night. it was an epically bad night, but the people around him would not have put him forward to do that if they felt that that's what was going to happen. but do you believe it was really the first time that had ever happened? >> i do. i genuinely i know i realized that's you know, again, i base this on my own experience. granted. i left over a year ago, so i'm not but i never saw that version of joe

biden and i just don't believe that the people around him who makes these help make these decisions with him would have put them in that situation if they thought there was a chance that was going to happen mark croston you know, we've written his obituary in a little bit chew i mean, again, this is the commentary. let's talk about how he can survive. now, where i'm from, garments from, you don't go to a fistfight without being, able to really want to knock the person's head off, joe biden did not show up at that debate to try to knock donald trump's head off. he went into that debate and talk about policy issues. this is not 1970, this is not nine 1980, 1990. we're in 2024 right now. donald trump has redefined how we play politics. and if joe biden wants to survive this geovanny has got to go out there in street fight if he needs well, i mean, isn't that a big part of it, matt gorman, though, that like, i mean, they're painted this as an existential moment for the country and that makes the stakes of joe biden having a night like he did that much higher? absolutely. again, when when everything is the

democracy lies in this night or this race, then you're right, then there's no room for error and i think i'll go back to what kate said earlier in the program. this is not a west wing episode, right? this, this will not go as cleanly as i think collectively, we all think it will right? and so let's think about this. so if he has an oh, okay, stephanopoulos interview and an okay. press conference, then trump will announce his vp and does this kind of get washed away a little bit? it will see, but i think the transition from biden to camila, if it happens, it's not gonna be some seamless thing. yeah. now it's a very, it's a very, very good good point and we are of course, an incredibly consequential moment that reminds us of history. so i want to say thank you to the panel, and i just want to leave you with one of the historical moments where we faced, we had a president facing something like this. >> ever the democrats nominate for president this year, he will h

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